By Dr. Selwyn R. Cudjoe
February 23, 2011
Jack Warner is the last person I thought would play the race card but then as my mother says, “You never know.” Here is Kamla and the PP getting their licks because they don’t know their ears from their navels but all Jack could say when workers use the democratic tools to protect their interests is they are targeting Kamla because she is an “East Indian woman.” It is strange that Kamla’s East Indianness never came up when she was running for the election nor, for that matter, was her gender seen in a negative light. In fact her being a Hindu woman seemed an asset given the place that women hold in the hierarchical structure of Hinduism.
But sometimes when things do not work out people say silly things. Here is Jack expostulating about the contemporary scene in T&T: “They [I am not too sure who “they” are] tend to forget so quickly that for eight years, nobody could have quacked in this country. They tend to forget that so quickly that for eight years, no police ever received an increase. They tend to forget so quickly that for eight years, police, prison officers, PSA did not say boo.” Now he says, “Everybody want to say, ‘Give me, give me,’ and nobody want to say ‘Here.'”
Reading Jack one would have thought that this was the first time the police had ever protested to defend their interest although the PM may have felt embarrassed by their action. In 1986, the Police marched around the Red House. In 2006, their marches almost shut down the country. There is one thing characterizes the police action: They know their power and are not afraid to use it to challenge whatever regime is in power.
What makes Jack’s claim so nonsensical is that the PP cannot even conduct a simple wage negotiation. Where any serious administrator would have been ashamed to say that they are unable to reach an agreement with one of the most sensitive services in the country, they prefer to chastise them. In fact, the PM takes the opportunity to continue her posturing in the belief that all she has to do to be successful is to talk and talk and talk.
Hence her only contribution to the debate was to pontificate as follows: “Those members of the Police Service who may believe that an abandonment of their duty to conduct and essential service such as the protection of our citizens, will find favour neither with the public or the government as a negotiation tactic, can expect quite the opposite.”
It is also difficult to reconcile the PM’s statement with that of her chief lieutenant when he concludes the police have not had an increase in eight years. Under the circumstances, isn’t it criminal to offer these officers a five percent increment over the next three years especially when one takes into consideration that between 2002 and 2010, the average annual inflation rate was 7.7 per cent. This means that one hundred dollars in 2002 is now worth $56; one hundred dollars in 2006 is now worth $70. Compared with 2002 and 2006 the police lost about $45 and $30 respectively on their wages if one were to take Jack’s incorrect statistic which makes the police posture more understandable.
Fortunately this is not the case. Every three years there is an industrial agreement between the police (through the Police Social and Welfare Association) and the Chief Personnel Officer that sets their terms and conditions. In 2007 the police said more than “boo” and received a 40 per cent increment for the period 2004-07. It is something that Jack deliberately forgets or prefers not to remember.
However, in this situation the real culprit is inflation and its persistent rise above the income gains of workers. This saps into workers livelihoods and send them on a rewinding spiral. Only last month, the Central Bank noted that the inflation rates (on foodstuffs, etc.,) went up by 13 per cent which means that the buying power of the segment of the work force is lagging again. In real terms, this might mean that in terms of real wages the police are not likely to be better off in 2011 than they were in 2007 even though they receive a 13 per cent increment for the period under negation. It simple has nothing to do with Kamla’s race, gender or religion.
Add to this, that the government plans to disband SAUTT whose members are rewarded with an additional $5,000 per month for their efforts. When one considers that this elite force took pride in their job one would have thought that the PP government would have been doing their best to enhance their readiness and professionalism. Instead, Kamla and her lieutenants prefer to discredit their efforts and declare their efforts worthless and unnecessary.
Such actions only add fury the policemen’s discontent. We all know that money is not the only incentives to those who protect and serve our people no matter how inefficient and indifferent some them may be at times. Pride in their jobs always adds to their performances. In order to do their best these police officers must believe that the powers that be see their services as essential, necessary and worthy of the best incentives.
It makes no sense to say the government has no money. It all comes down to it wishes to spend the people’s money and the priorities it develop? Do you want to enhance the public’s welfare or do you want to build a maco stadium?
It is also important to respect the bargaining process. You do not march into on-going negotiations and say “this is all you would get” after you selected a negotiator. Such outbursts suggest you are not negotiating in good faith.
Today, everyone “is big man and woman.” Respecting our personhood; process; and the evidence of history are always the better guide to conducting the people’s business whether you are a Christian or a Muslim; or a woman who happens to be Hindu.
The country has already made its verdict about how it feels about a Hindu woman. We have elected her to the highest office in the land. Anything to the contrary is an insult to the country. Jack should apologize to the country for his mischaracterization of the police’s motive. Anything less is unworthy of him.
Professor Cudjoe indicated that he was going to present his third multiculturalism article and I was looking forward to conducting the forensic dissection but I have to wait another week until I sharpen the instruments.
Prof.Cudjoe must be cognizant of PNM officials also playing the race card.The illusion of race is deeply entrenched in our social and political landscape, divisions were created by the PNM a predominantly african political party.Should the police service get a tangible wage increase?One must scrutinize the nature and performance of the police service to decide.The Scott’s drug report clearly stated that corruption is endemic in the police service and it permeates all ranks,the investigation into the police service produced significant findings linking many officers involvement with the drug mafia.The public perception of a corrupt police service is based on evidence.The detection rate of violent offences is low particularly involving homicides.The number of homicides has spiralled out of control while a highly emotive debate about capital punishment ensues.The corrupt and incompetent nature of the police service is clearly not a reason for a wage increase,there is ample evidence which portrays the police service in this manner.Mr. Warner may be somewhat justified in his comment of an “East Indian Woman”because there is clearly an ethnic imbalance in the police sevice which consists mainly of africans who are more statistically likely to vote PNM.Africans have adorned the upper echelons of the police service for decades.Political interference and alliance involving a former prime minister and the police service can be substantiated.Why did the police sevice chose to have a two day strike under the PP and not the PNM?This question must provide food for thought.
Hey, Pitbull, you missed several opportune instances which you could have used to bolster your claims showing how Black Trinis in general, and Dr. Eric Williams in particular discriminate(d) against Indians.
First of all, were it not for the anti-slavery determination of African slaves circa 1834, and even earlier in 1804 when a slave revolt in Haiti had all the white colonists ducking and running for cover, East Indians would not have been brought to this hemisphere as indentured.
Therefore, in addition to blaming Dr. Williams, also blame Toussaint L’Ouverture, Jean Jacques Dessalines, Frederick Douglas, Nanny, Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth …
And why not? Are these Black people, especially those engaged in opposing racism in the 19th century not responsible for creating an Indian Arrival Day?
Of course Black people in this hemisphere cannot blame any Indian for having fought against oppression in the same way as did these Black people. Except for today’s T&T, where Indians now need their own Mandela, Bishop Tutu, Dr. MLK Jr. Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, Angela Davis …
Also, while you are it, why didn’t you blame Dr. Rowley for the Reshmi affair?
After all, she is an East Indian woman, and therefore, any opposition to her by any Black man must be unavoidably racist.
The Prime Minister, in all fairness to her isn’t, I’m certain, of this opinion or stance.
However, brazenly opportunistic, she accused Dr. Rowley of being racist thereto. Given subsequent revelations, and her unwillingness to apologise, either she is right and Dr. Rowley is racist, or she is wrong, and whatever she says is so, is likely not so. Ok?
Whichever way it is, still blame Dr. Rowley and in addition, blame every other Black person you see today, and even those you do not see, and in history books like CLR.
Except for HNIC Jack Warner, who must always be taken at his word, especially when he makes accusations in Parliament which, when challenged to do so, he cannot repeat outside of Parliament. Black people are praying, too, that in this life or another, he will learn to love and respect Black people the way he does Hindus. Ok?
Finally, accusations against Black Trinis of being racist and of discrimination against Indians must be credible, or are close to being patented since these accusations now have, not only the stamp of a trademark for ardent repetition, but also the status of an industry for growth potential.
It should now be put on the Stock market, attract investors, go trans-national, and metastasize. The way “Big Lies” tend to do.
This makes sense as being the next level up from where this trademark belief now is, especially since Black leaderships, political and otherwise (including that of Makandaal who has fallen on his own Daaga) are scared sh*tless about being accused of being anti-Indian.
The only thing that probably scares them even more is to be found guilty if they were ever accused of being Black!
Even they know, however, from even the most cursory history of Black people, that with regards to us, while others regularly make high-decibel, orchestrated and absurd claims of being pissed off, that it is immeasureably worse being pissed on!
You have listed all kinds of supposition about the police withour any real proof and summed it up by saying that they don’t deserve any pay increases. Then don’t expect anything from the police. Why don’t you and those who believe that the police should not be paid fairly, come out and try to curb the level of crime in the country. Pardner you could only get what you pay for. So pay penuts.
One of the first players of the race card was the illustrious Dr. Eric Williams. And since that time most politicians have taken that page and used it. So what’s new.
The question of a raise for the security forces in T&T is very important. The salaries of the police should have been raise many years ago when the country was flush with petro dollars. Instead we built many monuments to the emperor. I agree that their salaries are unnecessarily low and that does not attract the personnel that we should be attracting to these important positions. Along with a raise in salary should be a rotation policy for all officers. Stagnated of course.
Since I am not an economist I do not know the impact a raise as is being requested by the police service would have on the economy, so I would like some economist to come in at this point and explain that. But I do know that when everything goes up by 20% the effect on the average person is more than 20%. So the net effect would be a loss in purchasing power and in global terms a decline in the currency. My question then is “Should a politician save the average person from themselves or should they please the crowd and give the people what they want?”.
Codjoe is on his way to become Trinidad’s version of Tea party Faux news Glenn Beck, all he need now is a chalk board and a pointer.
What race card? The doc seems to be imagining things again, it comes with old age. We do not have a race problem in sweet T&T. Racism is a black/white kinda thing. And to suggest that there is racism in T&T is wrong. Let us move on from the 1950’s thinking.
I will NOT CHOOSE between those of my family with English names like Eccles;
I will not choose above them, those with Scottish names like McNichols or McLean.
I will not elevate those with Spanish/Portugese names like Leon, Silva, Gonzales and Guerra,
nor their cousins with French names, African names like Anabolu,
nor Indian names like Baboolal or Ali.
They, we, are family bound with ties of blood stronger than any ethnic claim, stronger than politics, strong as the African ancestor,Mingo who started the clan, and the Duffs and Eccles who brought in the English stream. We flow as one, laughing together, eating, mating, loving, raising children. We are Trinidad and Tobago.
Those who would like to divide, must look elsewhere. By mating with the Amerindian people, my people who got here in 1815, cemented claim to this land, in perpetuity.
Those who would “Play the race card” should migrate somewhere else where that is the order of the day.
Others created things, we created a people said an African poet. Yes, we the Edwards did. Praise God, Allah, Yahweh, and the spirit of God that lives in every living thing.
Several people have claimed ownership of T&T using a variety of subjective criteria for ownership. In 1815 T&T belonged to the British and I fail to see how mating (who) with the Amerindians is the basis for ownership of T&T. In 1962 the neo-colonialists claimed ownership of T&T. T&T belongs to all the people who live here- no one has an exclusive claim or right. Ricardo Bharath is the result of a different kind of mating- dating-procreating. So are the douglas.
We have to learn racism from those who came to T&T with it as cultural baggage, and have never let go. Of all the major racial or ethnic groups in this world Africans and Indigenous peoples are the only two who came to these parts without religious and cultural racist baggage. What they are trying to do is to ease some it unto us. Remind them of who they are, and produce the evidence of history that demonstrates who they are.
Lest we forget: the Parliament, at Independence, on August 31, 1962, included, on the PNM side: Winston Mhabir( A Hindu name)Kamalludin Mohammed(a Muslim name) both Indians, Gerald Monatano(a local white) and others whose names I have forgotten. Could some lover of things racist tell readers how many non-Indians were elected on the DLP platform, or whatever the incarnation of the Indian party was calling itself then? How many were Nominated? Also, the delegation that went to Lancaster House to argue for Independence, was a multi-racial group. What was the ethnic composition of those who went to argue AGAINST independence?
If you were not living then, you could talk tata, and I do not mean the name of the motor car company.Others who were not living then, and do not know the history cannot argue back. Their facts are missing. Please go and check. Also, the group of scholars who went to UWI in 1964 on government scholarships included people named Mohammed, Jattan and Shah, as well as Ali. Go check with UWI. Stop talking tata people. Trinidad under Eric Williams did their best to bring the Indian population into the fold, even when they insisted that they wanted to build their own schools, and set up some sub-standard buildings, the government paid the teachers’ salaries(a fixed percent), and insisted on a standard curriculum in basic subjects. I taught at Woodbrook Secondary School within two years of its opening, and there were Indian children there. Ask Carlos John, he was in my English class in form three.Unfortunately, most of the staff from that time have gone to the ancestors or are not interested in refuting these lies.
My baby sister went to St. Augustine Girls’ High School. I do not think there was a single African originated teacher there at the time when she went.The teaching staff at Bishops included non-African teachers.
If you got it by theft or squatters rights, and have contributed nothing but animosity, how can you say it belongs to you? The ancient, revered, Benin Masks of the Kingdom of Benin, now within the Republic of Nigeria, belongs to the Benin People, although the British stole them at the end of the nineteenth century. Every year, the people of Benin petition to have them returned. The Greeks did so with the Elgin Marbles, they got their national treasures back. The Africans did not.
Trinidad is uniquely ours. If you do not understand why, consider yourself a dunderhead incapable of learning.The tree planted over my umbilical cord still lives. If I say where it is, haters may go and cut it down.
Trinidad belong to the islanders. Thousands of them flooded the island and were given lucrative positions in oil and state industries. Today they are the ones who are making the “big bucks”. The PNM agenda was to neutralize the Indo population by appealing to their tribal cousins in the Caribbean to come and take over the nation. Even the first Prime Minister father was Grenadian with an Indian mother. Mr. Manning ancestral roots run deep in Barbados. The main cause of criminality is these uncivilized islanders who came and made Laventille and Morvant criminal paradise. As for playing the race card the PNM played it several times, but history will end the reign of PNM racism forever. Mark my words.
All the Commissions of Inquiry into the state of TnT during periods of unrest, state that The Indian population wanted to be separate. That is why Presbyterianism flourished among the Indians , other Christian clergy, who were working among Africans, ex-slaves and landed Freemen, were not allowed to proslytise to the Indians. Thus the CMI: CAnadian Mission to The Indians.
My friend of Polish ancestry, a Deacon of her Presbyterian church, could not understand why all Presbyterians in TnT are Indians. She visited in 1985. I had to instruct her in our nine tiered society of race, religion and social class, inherited from all the areas of the world that are now making a mess of things.
“I see” was all she said, but she really cannot see hundreds of years of racial animus, distilled into the essence that is Trinidad and Tobago.
On Sunday, my Unitarian friends are going to do an exercise in church where they will refer to all members as “white”, “Hispanic”, “Chinese”, “African” or”Indian” as a prefix to their name, as in “my White friend Marsha”. They will also use the terms “Gay” and “Strait” and well as other perjoratives to talk of and to their congregation. Then they will discuss reactions and feelings.
When she shared the notice with me, I said to her that I hope the discussion session was open-ended, to deal with all the trauma that may come to the fore.
I would have liked to be an official observer at the event, but I am involved in another multiethnic-multiracial event that day.
Christianity has found root in the Indo community and is the equalize against the racist PNM. Christian break down these artifical barriers of racism created by the PNM. There is hope for T&T…
“All the Commissions of Inquiry into the state of TnT during periods of unrest, state that The Indian population wanted to be separate. That is why Presbyterianism flourished among the Indians , other Christian clergy, who were working among Africans, ex-slaves and landed Freemen, were not allowed to proslytise to the Indians. Thus the CMI: CAnadian Mission to The Indians”.
As a Presbyterian, the following is the history which I learned:
The Presbyterian Church arose out of the Protestant Reformation in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. It was the Frenchman, John Calvin, who helped to shape the administration of the Church we call Presbyterian.
Presbyterianism began in Geneva, Switzerland, and soon spread to other European centres, mainly France and Holland. The movement extended to Scotland and later, to Ireland and England.
From these countries, people who were Presbyterians migrated to North America. It was a Presbyterian minister from Canada who laid the foundation for the Presbyterian Church in Trinidad.
Reverend John Morton, a Minister of the Presbyterian Church of Nova Scotia, Canada, came to Trinidad to recuperate from illness. During his stay, he visited sugar estates and seeing the East Indian Community – about 20,000- in a state of neglect, he returned to Canada asked his Church to initiate a mission to these people. He offered himself as the pioneer of such a mission. The Canadian Church accepted the challenge. On January 6th, 1868, Reverend Morton, his wife and infant daughter arrived in Trinidad.
Morton discovered that at Iere Village, a Presbyterian mission already existed. This had been started by the Presbyterian Church of the United States of America. This small mission was however on the verge of abandonment. Instead of allowing this to fall completely, the American Church agreed to hand over its mission work to Reverend Morton.
Iere village then, became the first community of Presbyterian converts in Trinidad.
From Iere, work progressed to neighbouring estates. Because of this expansion, more workers were needed to assist the mission in Triniudad. In 1870, Reverend Kenneth Grant was sent to assist Morton.
The two primary racist political institutions in the Commonwealth Caribbean are the UNC whatever formation in T&T and the PPP in Guyana. It is not an accident that in both cases we see the same kind if leaders, the same kind of expressions and the same administrative policies. The fact of the matter is that if the African population was by nature racist, Indians would not be fleeing from Guyana and elsewhere to seek their fortunes in Caribbean nations that are almost 100% black.
We tolerate too much of this insipid racist ranting from those who seek to pawn their historical cultural and reliious caste infested baggages on to Africans. There comes a time when we must say enough and tell them to go to hell.
Africans the world over have inculcated a tendency to be less responsive to anti black historical traits that are found in other non white groups. This is becoming dangerous, because what we see is a deceitful exhibition of this antipathy being paraded in claims of victimhood. Their warped imaginations and postulations are fostered by a concretized and unalterable perspective that fairness and balance means their being “pon tap” so to speak. They start of with the premise that 1-1 is an imbalance that makes them a victim due to its parity with those they are culturally predisposed to view as inferior. The argumentation then takes off from there, to the effect that one African focussed national observances to many more Indian focussed national observances in T&T notwithstanding, they are being culturally marginalized. And we can go on and cite the other similar imbalances in power and cultural spheres where their group holds numerical advantage, but because it is not total or 99% they continue to cry wolf. I say enough.
You cannot reason with people within whom prejudice promotes a perspective of ethnic entitlement. Massaging and masturbating their debased egos does not temper their hallucinatory claims and wild synthesis of oppression. They feel this and argue this because what they seek and crave is absolute domination. They nostalgically seek a stratification of T&T where projecting blacks down the lader of human worth inverse proportionally elevates them upward into what they consider top of the heap. Stop pandering to their insane whims and self stroking egotisms. Just tell them to go to hell, we never had that baggage, we never had those traites, we never had that disease. Stop trying to contaminate us with a sickness that has a longer shelf life in your communities than ours.
I expect that soon, Black Trinis will also be blamed by Indians in T&T with the war between Indian Hindus and Pakistani Muslims after the Independence of India.
Interestingly, despite the cruel and dehumanizing role played by the British against Indians, neither group went to war against the English except for such instances as the “infamous” Black Hole of Calcutta incident in which some English settlers, placed in close confinement in a dungeon suffered and some died.
The accusation against Black Trinis is cleverly contrived. With the high-decibel repetitions utilized by “Big Lies” it assumes a truth primarily because so many Indians believe it to be true, and even some Black Trinis not only believe it, but to appear to be progressive and objective, accept being humiliated, forced on the defensive.
The reality is that for a community who claims to be marginalised, they now control three of the four main structural institutions by which dominance is attained and controlled: the judiciary, commerce, the legislature, and are on their way to control defence.
What Black Trinis fail to understand, something Black Guyanese already know of themselves, is that it is likely that T&T, like Guyana, will never again elect a Black person as Prime Minister.
The question now more than likely left relatively unanswered is to what extent will Black Trinis eventually become as marginalised in T&T as are Black Guyanese in Guyana.
Keith Williams wrote “The fact of the matter is that if the African population was by nature racist, Indians would not be fleeing from Guyana and elsewhere to seek their fortunes in Caribbean nations that are almost 100% black.”
The history of Guyana is indeed a sad one. Your hero Burnham has set that nation back a 1000 years. To this day one US dollar is worth almost 200 Guyanese dollars. That my friend is the sad reality. It was the racist Burnham that cause this horrible digression of a once great nation. Fortunately, under the stewardship of Jagdeo things are getting better, even Buxton has been the recepient of several programs that has turn black youths away from criminality. The future for Guyana is bright and with the discovery of oil, Guyana will one day be able to erase it’s sad history.
Are you for real. When Forbes Burnham died Guyana was then flooded with western money. The IMF, the World Bank and numerous private investment institutions rushed into Guyana, who at the time had no foreign loans, and Guyan moved from being the country with no debt to the most indebted country. That is why the currency plummeted.
Forbes Burnham was never flooded with Western Money. In fact all of the economic examinations reveal that the current regime in Guyana received more than three time the amounts of foreign aid as the Burnham regime, not mention the gurg money that continues to pour in.
The current regime in Guyana was involved conspiratorially and directly, with the lynchings of hundreds of black men. There is no equivalency to this in the commonwealth Caribbean.
http://www.thewestindiannews.com/extrajudicial-killings-must-not-be-countenanced-as-a-proxy-for-justice-in-guyana/
The future of Guyana is bright for the ethnicists who see the world through the prism of their kind being in control and marginalizing those they seek to relagate to dalit status. So your assessment is in line with our expectations.
And yes, Indians do flock to African controlled geographic centers. Indians are running away from Guyana to Islands like Barbados and Antigua, despite the fact that an ethnic regime is in charge.
The PPP has not given anything to Buxtonians except misery and a slave master like interaction. I know many Buxtonians and speak with them often. In fact one of Buxton’s most famous Sons, and someone who went jail backing the PPP against the Presidency of a black man summed up that relationship succintly.
http://www.stabroeknews.com/2010/news/stories/08/21/jagdeo%E2%80%99s-buxton-visit-a-%E2%80%98political-charade%E2%80%99-%E2%80%93david-hinds/
Today he has to be regretting going to jail for people who when they got into power now labels his criticism of their policies and administration as racist. The same reaction many who supported the PP in T&T will receive from the ethnicist when they do likewise.
We only have to examine the evidence of history, the attitudes of people in order to understand the depravity of prejudice that blinds them to truth. When you emancipate yourselves from the culture and belief systems of human worth based on what part of the bodies of Gods they were created, your comments on the weighty matters of group interaction will have merit. As it is today, your just vomitting from a cultural predisposition that is more and more becoming recognizeable. The genie out of the lamp. No amount of lies and decitfully formulated stories can put it back.
seven years ago, I asked a friend from Switzerland, to proofread my second novel. In realing itshe realized thet there were Indians in Trinidad. Do oyu like them? She asked, because of their portrayal in that book is sympathetic. I asked why she asked.
Then she related living in an African country and in Vancouver, Canada(She won a contest in our multiethnic group for having lived in more countries than anyone else in the group- 48), where in Indo populations did not integrate, married their own, sent their children to separate schools, but raked in every benefit the country of residence had to offer to any citizren, whatever. She was describing Trinidad as she saw it in VAncouver and East Africa. I kept silent, realizing that if I opened my mouth too much would fall out. This woman had a degree in economics, and worked with her husband who was a biologist with the World Health organization.
One never knows who is conspiring wih whom to bring down your country.
The critics were loud against Mugabe, and seeded the opposition. There were woeful stories of “abuse of power” while these same westerners profitted from the oil of Egypt and Libya and the mineral wealth of Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria. Mugabe triumphed. Where are the others?
T-MAn, I was told by my faith that God is a male. You must dig for yourself. Check the commission reports that are in the Public Library, on the role of the CAnadian Mission to The Indians. Its there in black and white(maybe brown and gray by now old paper, you know?).
It is no even handed to talk about expatriate communities in any one country. The expatriate West Indian communities all over the world, whether of African, Indian or Chinese extract, congregate in enclaves. So do the Polish, Russian, etc. etc.. Whether it is because of nearness to each other for conversation or cultural activities including food import and preparation.
I have found these communities always help each other. Some are more organized that other and the help will generally extend from that organization. The West Indian parties in East Africa when I lived there were well known and any new West Indian arrival that was known would be celebrated. My point is I do also remember the East Indian community in East Africa and they were well organized. I also remember the European community in East Africa and their organization was far superior to the East Indians but that was not talked about.
I have a great affinity for Mugabe, even though I think he has remained in power too long. And also for Khadaffi who has also remained in power too long. Mugabe was betrayed by the agreement with the defeated forces. And Khadaffi will also be betrayed by the defeated forces.
In the end we cannot decide for anyone else the type of organization that they wish to create and maintain. What we should do in recognize it and foster its participation in the greater movement called humanity.