By Dr. Selwyn R. Cudjoe
January 17, 2011
A few days after Kamla Persad Bissessar became the Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago she dropped in at the headquarters of the Maha Sabha and announced blithely that the nation will adopt a multicultural rather than a transcendent cultural policy that served our nation well during its first fifty years of its existence. Such an announcement constituted a repudiation or reversal of Dr. Eric Williams’s vision that was contained in his “Mother Trinidad and Tobago Speech” that emphasized our commonalities rather than our differences. Dr. Williams envisioned a nation in which we should consider ourselves Trinidadians and Tobagonians first, anything after that.
In his “Mother Trinidad and Tobago Speech” Dr. Williams intimated that we owe our primary allegiance to T&T rather than the various countries from which our ancestors came. In 2010, angered by the seemingly preferential treatment that Africans enjoyed under the People’s National Movement, the People’s Partnership (PP) decided to emphasize our difference rather than our commonalities thereby tearing away at the common cultural bond that holds us together as a nation.
The implications of these two approaches to nation building strike me forcible as I observe the turmoil taking place in Cote d’Ivoire, a neighbor of Ghana, where I have been renewing acquaintances with my mother land (sounds contradictory, doesn’t it) for the past three weeks. Looking at the events in Cote d’Ivoire no one would deny that its cultural policy or its managing its various ethnic groups has been responsible for the deep mess in which it finds itself. On the contrary, Ghana’s cultural policy has contributed immensely to its economic prosperity and political stability.
Ghana and Cote d’Ivorie began their national journeys in 1957 and 1960 respectively under the leadership of two strong-willed leaders: Kwame Nkrumah and Felix Houphouet-Boigny. While Ghana was subjected to British colonialism; Cote d’Ivoire was incorporated into the French system of paternalism and assimilation. Ghana embarked upon a socialist path of development that empowered the poor but proved disastrous for big businesses and foreign investors. Nkrumah was overthrown by the USA in 1966.
Cote d’Ivorie set out on a capitalist path. In the first twenty years after independence its economy grew at about 8 per cent per annum and was described as the “Ivorian miracle.” While the Ivorian economy kept growing, the Ghana economy fell into desperate straits and did not recover until the early1980s. During that period it performed poorly and experienced minus growth rates.
By the early eighties the world recession took its toll on the Ivorian economy. By 1990 Ivorian prosperity began to decline. After Houphnet-Boigny died in 1993, Henri Konan Bedie, the new president, emphasized the concept of “Ivority” that favored indigenous Ivorians, excluded immigrants who formed one third of the populace and targeted Muslims. Although Houghnet Boigny made Alassane Quattara his Prime Minister, President Bedie prevented him from running for the presidency in the 1990s because his parents were not born in the Cote d’Ivorie. In 1999 a military coup sent Bebie into exile in France.
Ivority had disastrous consequences for ethnic relations which explain many of the problems that exist in Cote d’Ivoire today. Gbagbo, the former President, who was defeated by Quattara in the November 28 election, refuses to give up the presidency. Two of defeated candidates (Quattara, a Mossi and Bedie, a Baoule, who received 32 and 22 per cent of the votes respectively in the run-up elections) came together under Quattara to defeat Gbagbo.
Ghana on the other hand used culture as a bedrock value and anchored its development upon bringing its fifty ethnic groups together, a major policy initiative of Nkrumah. This policy, very much like Dr. Williams’ transcendent cultural policy, explains much of Ghana’s recent prosperity which has made it a beacon of stability in Africa. An updated cultural policy, adopted in 2004, reinforced Nkrumah’s initiative. In his foreword to the latter document, John Kufuor, Ghana’s former president, wrote: “One fascinating attribute of our culture is the strength and unity we derive from our diverse cultural backgrounds.”
In 2007 South Africa awarded Dr. Williams its most prestigious national award posthumously. In making the award, Thambo Mbeki, former President of South Africa, declared that “The vision during our struggle for liberation was strikingly similar to the vision of the great West Indian historian and prime minister who directly addressed the great diversity of his country in the cause of national unity….This is the wisdom that we, too, apply for a single South Africa.” It is no coincidence that President Mbeki was one of the first African leaders to go to Cote d’Ivoire to try to settle the conflict there.
Persad-Bissessar has every right to modify our cultural policy-preferable after national debate-although such a policy should not advantage one group over another. And it cannot only be concerned with how much money each group gets from the national treasury. The trenchant observations of Martin Daly’s “Equal to Pythagoras” and Lenny Grant’s “Knife-Folk: Dining in Golden Memories” (in Sunday Express, January 16) demonstrate PP’s animosity towards the national instrument, the purveyors of that form and its calamitous approach to culture. When will they learn that culture cannot be quantified and/or reduced to how much money each form receives?
The proponents of Ghana’s cultural policy argue that its culture “is established by our concepts of Sankofa, which establishes linkages with the positive aspects of our past and the present. It therefore embodies the attitude of our people to the interaction between traditional values and the demands of modern technology within the contemporary international cultural milieu.” This suggests that in constructing national policy one cannot be unmindful of the relative value of each cultural input in the making of a nation’s culture.
Multiculturalism cannot be successful if it does not inculcate the positive aspects of our past, wield them into a usable whole; and use them as a foundation that brings the nation together. Nor can it privilege one culture over another. Thoughtful consideration must be given to incorporating the Williams model into a new multiculturalism policy giving the relative weight and value to each strand of our cultural patrimony.
If Dr. Williams’s approach to national culture is good enough for Ghana and South Africa, it should be good for T&T. It has prevented us from succumbing to the fate that now befalls Cote d’Ivoire. It is a necessary point of departure for any new formulation of our national culture policy.
19 thoughts on “Mother Trinidad and Tobago”
Good article Dr. Cudjoe. As always you seem to feel the pulse of a restless people who yearn for a single identity. Part of our problem in this here island is the belief that politicians will guide us to respectibility and acceptance. While we do not get thunderous support from our Indian population for the works of Mr. Sat Maharaj, we also do not get any condemnation of his divisive and controversial politics where he emphasizes divisiveness rather than unity. Kamla in her eagerness to repay him for holding her ethnic supporters intact for her victory in the general elections showered him with praises, a national award and a commanding voice on the future of our culture in Trinidad and Tobago. It is interesting that no national debate was encouraged or put to enlightenment for public consumption before adopting the foolish idea of “multiculturism”. What exactly does that mean? andf where does is take us as a small culture in the Caribbean? Where are the benefits of such a path and who stands to benefit by it? Because3 of Sat’s desire to hoard government money into his pocket he has always advocated that not enough money was given to his Hindu side of the bargain, he felt that with the sharing of the money he stands go gain immensely for his Hindu organisation and people. Obviously Kamla believed him so hence the sharing of that ministry with the Calypsonian fella, who seems to be following Sat’s lead rather than bringing new ideas to the table. So! the question is where is this thing called multiculturism taking this ethnically diversified little country? This is the question Kamla, Gypsy and Sat should answer to the satisfaction of true blooded Trinbagonians.
Multiculturalism, wherever it has become state policy, is an idea which comes from those in power and eventually works to marginalise those out of power. For example, in Canada, this policy while touted in the country’s constitution does not acknowledge that while there are three levels of government: Federal, Provincial, and Municipal; all mandated to return taxes via social and other programs to the citizenry, that it is the fourth level of governence, Communal, that eventually determines how the national pie is divided. Therefore, if one is Italian-Canadian, or Irish-Canadian, or Jewish-Canadian, as compared with the Indigenous peoples or African-Canadian, the national pie, from the national tax base is skewed in how it is divided. Multi-culturalism implies that all cultures have the same base of social wealth in terms of linguistic integrity, religious autonomy, etc. In T&T, which of the races has greater social wealth in controlling newspapers, radio stations etc., since these determine the extent to which one race can foist its intersts andd cultural impact on the rest of the population? This is the race designed to better receive their portion of the national pie.
“Ghana on the other hand used culture as a bedrock value and anchored its development upon bringing its fifty ethnic groups together, a major policy initiative of Nkrumah.”
Due to globalization, the world we live is vastly different from the world of Dr. Williams or Nkrumah. Culture is influencing and shaping the way we see ourselves. For instance Caribana in Canada, Nothinghill Carnival and various carnivals across the world have it’s birth in Trinidad. This is result of globalization. Exculsivity in culture no longer exist. Pan music is played across schools in North America, pan is not exclusive to T&T. It is not unusual to land in one of the Caribbean islands and be greeted with pan music.
Nkrumah’s Ghana is the way it is today not because of culture rather it was the policy of communal togetherness that change the course of this great nation. By that I mean the tribalistic nature of Ghana was broken down by government policy that sought to develop a one Ghana policy. They did this in the bording schools where various tribes were integrated socially, avoiding tribal exclusivity. The nation in other words grew together into a spirit of oneness. This type of oneness was not achieved in many African nations resulting in never ending wars, example Sudan and Congo.
In Trinidad the cultural ethos of T&T cannot be determined by government policy. Rather it will continue to change as the nation grows and the youths embrace the artforms. Pan is no longer a national instrument but a rather a global instrument taught across the world where Trinis have settled. The transposition of culture will continue well into the future in this great global village. People must not depend on government handouts to foster culture….
Khem, your thoughts on this matter are very well said except that no one is talking about exclusivity in culture. One CANNOT advocate or expect exclusivity and at the same time look to progress. Chutney is explosing in T&T today because young artistes are experimenting and have found succes with a formula that is national in nature, whilst emanating from the Indian experience is giving us a musical genre that is ve and reflective of our behaviour. No one pretends that Chutney ois Calypso or vice versa. Each genre stand on its own and give credence to our celebration of expressing our joyful feelings with pride without negatively engaging another form of expression. The American cultural scene encomnpasses Classical, Country, Jazz, Rythm and Blues, Hip-Hop, Rock, Folk and Blue Grass. Within each of these greoups there are variations of different genres which stands with exceptions on their own, yet with such a wide variety of art forms no one has yet called for “Multiculturism” in the vast American musical culture. Here in T&T we have 1.3m people with mostly two divergent cultures and we feel that there is no room for assimilation! How foolish is this? This is the product of a closed mind or closed minds. By encouraging this Kamla is in fact limiting the cultural growth of our young minds woith little to imagine about. We know where Sat’s mind is. With the success of the Soca Warriors a few years ago in Germany he did NOT rejoice for the success of the Warriors but instead tried to get an Indian Football Coach from France to come to Trinidad to teach Indian youths to play football. Is this craziness or what? This is the same man who was given a National Award by this PM for his work in Culture. We know where we are going by the tracks we embark upon and set our sights to follow to. Is the Ministry now responsible for Culture in T&T really have our intetrest at heart? I dont think so. I believe that Multiculturism is all about the sharing of government money.
“Here in T&T we have 1.3m people with mostly two divergent cultures and we feel that there is no room for assimilation! How foolish is this? This is the product of a closed mind or closed minds.”
Kian your assignment for today is to go and find a copy of Jit Samaroo classic steelpan music. Assimilation is a natural product of association.
Calypso is one of the many art forms, we can no longer expect it to be the primary artform. There use to be a time when we could say it was part of national culture, today it is filled with vulgarities and hateful lyrics.
To preserve an artform you have to set high standards as to it’s delivery, lyrics and language. Making a social commentary such as “Captin the ship is sinking” was just one of those classics.
Today the standards are considerably lower and almost any garbage can pass as calypso, as long as it has some perverted, seductive and vulgar theme. We can safely say as an artform Calypso no only reflect the national ambitions.
But Kian that is the nature of culture, the nation grows, changes and redirects itself. As for the word multi-culturalism, it is simply a word that identifies the many cultures with the singular Trini mosaic.
I agree with you except the mere passing of the word “multiculturism”, in my mind it is an invective that carries sinister motives. It is by no means non-lethal.
“Angered by the ‘seemingly preferential treatment’ that Africans enjoyed under the People’s National Movement, the People’s Partnership (PP) decided to emphasize our difference.”
‘Seemingly preferential’ indeed Doc, for I cannot point a finger towards where they benefited in any fashion ,when compared to the unmentionable country leeches, but dats a different story, for another occassion.
In your quest to laud high praises on our cross-section of Akan ( Ashant/Fanti ),Ewe, Ga-Adangbe, Mole-Dagbani,Guan, and Gurma.brothers and sisters, fragile post Massa England political experiments , I observed that you conveniently ignored post Fl Lt. Jerry Rawlings aka junior Jesus, military turned democratic adventurism, along with the obvious Stalinist purges that would have inevitably followed, for his rule to last as long as it did.
Perhaps , the fact that Ghanaians did not choose to return to that type of system like most of Africa , is more a testament to their nature as a people, and like me ,a total abhorrence for all self serving actions of military leaders as a whole, from Castro, to Saddam, Musharaf,Chavez,Dada Amin, the crazies across Nigeria, and the likes,
Long live authentic democracy, and may recently discovered resource laden Ghana ,be a beacon of hope ,and peace across Africa as it search for leadership. Let’s avoid revisionism,while keeping dem honest shall we?
Come on I do not believe what I read. “Ghana on the other hand used culture as a bedrock value and anchored its development upon bringing its fifty ethnic groups together, a major policy initiative of Nkrumah. This policy, very much like Dr. Williams’ transcendent cultural policy, explains much of Ghana’s recent prosperity which has made it a beacon of stability in Africa.” Having lived in West Africa for about 12 years, and traveled from Senegal to Nigeria the stability that we now talk about is the more fragile than a crystal glass.
The battles in Sierra Leone and Liberia brings some of these idiosyncrasies into the forefront. These two countries experienced the effects of the reversal of colonization where the returning peoples were established on the coastlines where the colonial powers had their centers of activities. This also meant that all the economic activities were centered on the coast. The inland tribes saw the new colonizers as just as intrusive and oppressive as the old colonizers. With independence the battle lines were drawn and awaited an ignition.
With other colonies along the west coast subjugation was also the policy, including Ghana. The inland poverty and slavery that exist currently in Ghana would upset most. So what we do is deny it and look at what is presented through whatever media to which we subscribe.
Then look at Ivory Coast, Benin, Senegal, Nigeria and Cameroun. Again the inland tribes/clans/cultures, some of them overlapping because of inaccurate/colonial borders, battling the coastal peoples.
I do not see how that has any bearing on what is Trinidad and Tobago except the perceived oppressed try to overcome the perceived oppressors. This begs the question, who is the oppressed and who is the oppressors??
“In his “Mother Trinidad and Tobago Speech” Dr. Williams intimated that we owe our primary allegiance to T&T rather than the various countries from which our ancestors came. In 2010, angered by the seemingly preferential treatment that Africans enjoyed under the People’s National Movement, the People’s Partnership (PP) decided to emphasize our difference rather than our commonalities thereby tearing away at the common cultural bond that holds us together as a nation.”
I find this comment to be commical. The doc a few years ago was encouraging Africans in T&T to wear the “dashiki” every day. WHY? It would be similar to Sat asking Hindus to wear a dhoti, kurta and sari every day. This is simply a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
“the People’s Partnership (PP) decided to emphasize our difference rather than our commonalities thereby tearing away at the common cultural bond that holds us together as a nation.” Khem, with words like that I nominate you to be our representative to the UN!. Whilst you have no qualms in saying the PNM preferred Afros you are careful not to say Kamla is now reversing to preferring Indians. But we get the message!
Kian in a pluralistic society there will always be this “puling and tuggin”. To the PP credit the party is far diverse than the PNM could ever be. Such diversity must be viewed as strength. Some of the most powerful ministries such as Labour,Sports, Culture, Health, Ministry of National Security went to non-indians so I fail to see your argument of the PP preferring Indians, this it is what we call perception. Perception is reality for a lot of people.
Let it not be said that the PP is an Indian party, because it will be a total mischaracterisation and an insult to all who supported this party. Remember a lot of PNM strongholds went to the PP. And the support for the PP came from all streams of society. In fact the PP is perhaps the only truly national party in T&T.
It can be said the PNM is an African party. Just look at their side and composition. Let’s be fair Kian. The Prime Minister’s post is only one of many important posts but we cannot define a party only by the leader.
“The doc a few years ago was encouraging Africans in T&T to wear the “dashiki” every day. WHY? It would be similar to Sat asking Hindus to wear a dhoti, kurta and sari every day.” No khem , it ‘s you who are the comical one, for being so dense ,to NOT realize ,that Sat did not have to encourage any of his people ,to flaunt ancestral regalia at every opportunity, since unlike African folks ,they kept all their traditions ,and customs including foods,forms of dress, and secret, yet well known ,unmentionable , taboo practices.
African folks in contrast are like global sheep lost in the wilderness, and has grasp on to every pagan religion, fraudulent value , foreign norms ,where ever it could be found, since they’ve lost all of theirs , and that’s a tragedy.
It is simply sad to see how creatures such as yourself, would continually have a problem with conscious Afrocentric leaders, striving to find a way to instill some sense of self love, and pride in the their people – especially our kids- in like manner to what others do for their.
Now if you had a bit of sense , and or useful education , you would know by now ,that it is impossible for someone to love the other , unless they first love them self.
Oh what a sick irony, but such would obviously escape you and others of similar ilk. Nation building was never meant to be this difficult.
“In 2010, angered by the seemingly preferential treatment that Africans enjoyed under the People’s National Movement, the People’s Partnership (PP) decided to emphasize our difference rather than our commonalities thereby tearing away at the common cultural bond that holds us together as a nation.”
Assimilation is the key to the survival and prosperity of western world nations that were once extensions of European monarchies.
China even with their various ethnic groups realize that they have to assimilate to one norm. Everyone in China knows or is learning Mandarin.
TNT will never be what Kamla wants it to be.
Because of globalization, I really don’t understand why more Trini Nationals living abroad don’t return home.
I have said it before and I will say it again, people looking at Asia, Africa, and Europe for their identity in TNT is foolishness. No matter what you may look like, Trini’s have more in common with one another than they do with people who share their genetic code in other nations world wide. Once in the U.S., I spoke to an Indian from India who told me that Indotrini’s weren’t the same. She stopped just short of saying that they weren’t real Indians.
This foolishness about looking outside of TNT for identity is a waste of time.
Curtis said, “I spoke to an Indian from India who told me that Indotrini’s weren’t the same. She stopped just short of saying that they weren’t real Indians.” This woman should be commended Curtis , for guess what you are not.
In reality , the vast majority of Trini Indians, whether it’s the bare-feet homeless beggar, to the PM of our country ,are a million times better off that 98 % of their cousins stuck in ancestral , phony democratic India.
A lil bit oh gratitude ,would go a longer way than any cosmetic gestures aimed at assimilation, for you guys won’t want that, even if dey hit you in your head, and threatened to confiscate your 100 acres of land given to you by Massa England. It’s just not your nature my friend , unless you are based in a European dominant country , where whites are viewed with such high regards, as your superiors.
by the way it’s good to have you back from hibernation buddy, with a fresh perspective. Pity you cannot recommend the same hideout for diehard tribalist , and apologist for neo racial social leaders, and cyber crawling friends , as they were programmed to only sport crooked grins ,like constipated hyaenas , and would never tout the fine virtues of their country of birth , unless on occasions , when they so happen to possess national political power.
Now since this only happened twice in our entire 48 year history as a nation, your guess is as good as mind as to what that did for national unity/ nation building , or as you so coyly pretend to care about today- assimilation.
Lord save us from these and similar confused ,self loathing, country haters! T-Man , Khem , you too are included in this bunch.
Another interesting and worthwhile piece by Dr. Cudjoe. If I may, I’d like to comment from a basis in prophecy.
The question of identity that we face in T&T and elsewhere, should best be viewed through the lens of identity revealed in the Book of Yahweh. For prophecy is predicated on seedline identity. There is a destiny pre-ordained for the children of Israel, whether we know it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we believe it nor not. There is also a destiny pre-ordained for the children of Esau, Ishmael, Elam, etc.
For the seedline Israelite — which in the T&T context is most if not all Afro-Trinis — the destiny that awaits is redemption by Yahweh. We are today collectively at the bottom of every society to which we were scattered (in fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:64) for our collective iniquity — we failed miserably our Holy Covenant obligation to obey Yahweh’s Law, and have suffered the prophesied consequence.
Even so, the seedline of Israel, scattered though we are to all four corners of the earth, remains a “holy nation” unto Yahweh, and he promises our unilateral redemption and regathering unto the land of Israel (Genesis 28:15, Deuteronomy 30:3, Jeremiah 23:5-6, Jeremiah 46:28, Ezekiel 34:23 and elsewhere).
There is also a promised blessing for those of non-Israelite seedline who have physically grafted themselves to us (Isaiah 56:6-7, Ezekiel 47:22), along with blessings for those who bless us (Genesis 12:3).
In this prophetic context, Eric Williams was right to speak of allegiance to Mother T&T. For the Afro-Trini, allegiance to “Mother Africa” is a delusion. Our homeland is in fact Israel. I do not say that to in anyway disparage the Africans among whom we sojourned for a long time, and to whom we are related by blood and culture, but from whom we are distinct as a matter of paternal seedline. (For example, Joseph married an Egyptian, and he obviously looked like an Egyptian otherwise his brothers would have recognized him when they came to him seeking to buy grain. So by appearance the children of Israel looked African, but by seedline we are not Hamitic, rather Shemitic.) So as long as Yahweh scattered us to these parts, it is proper for us to give allegiance to this land.
To the Indo-Trini, it will be self-defeating to promote allegiance to Mother India, necessarily weakening allegiance to Mother T&T, and fracturing the society.
It would be self-defeating because T&T society, far from being “half-made”, is a wholly creole Caribbean society, unique in the world, and reflective of the many ethnicities who contributed their blood, sweat, suffering, as well as forms of joyful expression and celebration, and formed a Caribbean identity long before Indian arrival. It would ultimately be self-defeating for the still new arrival to seek to assert “Mother India” Hindu dominance. It did not work in Fiji, and it will be resisted here.
Paradoxically, they might stand a better chance if they echo Eric Williams, and affirm allegiance solely to a “Mother Trinidad and Tobago”. And mean it. But any overt attacks against the Creole Caribbean Culture that still defines the T&T polity will trigger resistance, possibly massive resistance, therefore self-defeating.
In any case, the prophetic outlook suggests strongly that they better play nice. The consequences will be disastrous for the whole society if they don’t.
This dude is so full of contradictions, are one person has previously stated. He reclaims his African heritage, but Indians must abandon theirs.
Dream on man, dream on. This guy is on a mission to destroy Indian culture. Obviously, a victim of unrequited love.
Do Ma’at and live.
Hey Chinnloy, pray tell me who requested that you ,and other Indo Trins abandon your culture? The last time I checked there were at least 2000 Hindu , and Muslim schools across our nation, perhaps the same amount of pro Indian feel good , glorification,organizations. In addition , more than half of our pro religious festivals and national holidays are geared towards your community.
As for dem Africans whose ancestors built this country freely , and were never , ever compensated , even while a whole bunch of self serving , clueless African leaders were in charge of the politics of this country since 1956, you can count the figures in furtherance of their culture on one hand.
Let me ask you something , and hopefully you have the guts to give an honest answer. If Dr Cudjoe had won a nobel prize for literature , after initially obtaining a scholarship back in the days from T&T , then after obtaining success , never gave credit to his country of birth , but instead choose to run to Africa ,and kiss the feet of all the kings and queens, that tossed his ancestors out of the continent in the first place, what do you think would be the reactions across our country?
We know fully well , what they have done for the global ingrate V.S Naipaul. His behavior is unfortunately reflective of a people who enjoys holding ‘global carpet bagging status,’especially when living amongst people of color , agreed?
Just leave the good Doctor alone , and let him be , as he try to elevate the status of his African brothers and sisters, will you. It is guys like him that will prevent other barbarians such as Dada Amin , or dem Fijian generals with lust in their hearts against their South Asian countrymen from developing.
Great country of ours . Just hope it can so remain.
It is always of interest, to note, that those “liberal” folk who often get into positions of authority, by what is correctly called “SPECIFIC” cultural associations are the very first ones to talk about “MULTI -culturalism”. Strange, isn’t it.
This has NEVER worked, ANYwhere, as the People WHO are targeted for such MULTI-isms are the VERY Ones often left with the ILLUSION of INCLUSION. Period.
Thanks, Dr. Cudjoe, for the interesting article. I was just wondering if you’ve read the article “Villaging the Nation” from Callaloo (vol. 31.4), which analyzes Dr. Williams’ “transcendent cultural policy”? I was also wondering if you’ve read the post by Tyehimba, who is a contributor to this site, from some years ago which seems to argue that ethnic and racial unity in T&T is an illusion that the country must dispense with (I believe in his response to the comments on his article Tyehimba says something like “The deep illusions such as ‘one love’, ‘rainbow country’, ‘all ah we is one’, only serves to blind people to the real situation and problems in T & T)? Do you have any comments on either of these?
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